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Beyond the Earth

Interviews by Guy Harrison

Space Images I

Space Images II

Space Images III

Apollo History Page

Apollo Images

Lunar Module

Apollo Diagrams

Secrets of the Space Shuttle

Nebula Images

Galaxy Images

Books and Videos

Space Links






Interviews by Guy Harrison on this page:

Gene Cernan Gemini 9, Apollo 10, Apollo 17;
Thomas Stafford Gemini VI (first rendezvous in space), Gemini 9, Apollo 10, Apollo-Soyuz;
Frank Borman Gemini 7, Apollo 8 (first voyage to the Moon);
Walter Jacobi German rocket engineer, member of Wernher Von Braun's team;
George "Ted" Saseen NASA's chief engineer during Apollo years;
Joe Kittinger Test pilot, jumped out of a balloon at the edge of space;

John Young Extraordinary astronaut, Gemini, Apollo and space shuttle veteran.

 




 





Gene Cernan, Apollo 17 commander
and the last man to walk on the Moon.
 




The Last Moonwalker


By Guy Harrison

The confident and capable astronaut had become the third human to walk in space and was now well on his way to setting a new EVA record of 2 hours and nine minutes. But as sweat streaked down his face and fog crept across his visor, he began to think about little more than survival. His heart raced and it became uncertain if he would be able to make it back inside the small Gemini spacecraft. These were the early days of space exploration and Gene Cernan was discovering firsthand just how much remained to be learned.

Cernan escaped disaster that day to fly all the way to the Moon on Apollo 10 in May of 1969. He and mission commander Thomas Stafford flew the lunar module within ten miles of the Moon to pave the way for the first landing that would take place two months later.

Apollo 17 was the crowning glory of Cernan's remarkable career. He served as mission commander, flying with Ron Evans and Harrison Schmitt. On December 11, 1972 Cernan and Schmitt landed on the Moon. They spent 73 hours in a deep valley called Taurus-Littrow, putting in hard days exploring and quiet nights sleeping inside the lunar module.

Cernan certainly is proud of his time spent on the lunar surface. However, he finds the title of "last man on the Moon", to be a dubious honor. He happily would relinquish it, he says, just to see humans heading back to that place he once called home for three unforgettable days.



Guy Harrison: To be the last man on the Moon is unique and special, but would you prefer to have seen many more people follow behind you?
Gene Cernan: I have been the last man on the Moon for far too long. It's been 30 years. When I came back on Apollo 17 the press kept asking me how it felt to be the tail of the dog, the last one over the fence. I told them that Apollo 17 is not the end; it is the beginning. I said that not only are we going to go back to the Moon, but we will be on our way to Mars by the turn of the century. I don't regret what I said. My glass is not half empty, it's half full. We are going to do that, but were not going to do it as quickly as I had hoped we would.

To be called the "last man on the Moon" is an honor. It's a dubious honor, but it is an honor. I didn't plan to be the last man on the Moon. I lived on the Moon for the three days and I made those last steps on the Moon. But I would much rather see us exploring space avidly today, rather than what we are doing up there now.

Frankly, nobody knows or nobody cares [about NASA's efforts in recent years]. It doesn't turn anybody on. Once the shuttle is gone no one knows what is happening.
We need to get back into the exploration mode. We need to get humans geared up to go back to the Moon and to Mars. It will happen. I might not see it but you will see it.

Describe that rough Gemini 9 EVA [June, 1966].
We were venturing into a domain that we didn't know much about. Leonev, the Russian [first human to walk in space; March 18, 1965], was out there for 12 minutes. I know him very well, and he will admit today that he spent the first three minutes getting out and the last nine fighting for his survival just to get back in [the spacecraft]. It wasn't much of a spacewalk really. Ed White [Gemini 4, second human to walk in space; June 3, 1965] was out there for 20 minutes, had this little gun [hand-held propulsion unit] and tooted around. Everything went great. It was just getting out there and seeing what it was like. Ed did have some problems getting back into the spacecraft but we didn't pay much attention to it because we knew it was a tight fit.

The next spacewalk was going to be done by Dave Scott on Gemini XIII. But that was scrubbed when they had a thruster problem and they came back in and never did the spacewalk. So all of the sudden we went from 20 minutes with Ed White to a two-and-a-half hour planned walk with me actually detaching from the umbilical and putting on a backpack [AMU, or Astronaut Maneuvering Unit]. It was ambitious. We ignored the fundamental problems that we might encounter, all of us, myself and everybody involved. It wasn't anticipated to be dangerous. It was anticipated to be a challenge. Nobody ever thought of the problems we would run into in terms of stabilization, holding position. I had a tremendously difficult time just assembling this backpack, the AMU [stored at the rear of the Gemini capsule]. All I had was something like a bicycle handlebar to hold onto and I had a bar to stand on. But nobody stands on anything in zero gravity. What was eventually developed was "golden slippers" [footholds on the spacecraft] that guys can put their feet in. And if you can anchor your feet in zero gravity then you can pick up an 18-wheeler truck with your hands.

It was difficult and challenging up to the point when I overpowered my cooling system and became all fogged up [helmet visor]. My heart rate was high. I was getting tired. I came closer than I was willing to admit at the time to a serious situation. But at this point we realized that I was in danger. We realized that we were in a position that there might not have been a way out of. I was very disappointed that I couldn't continue. In retrospect it was probably one of the best decisions we ever made. We knew that getting back into the spacecraft was going to be a problem, a problem that was multiplied because I was so tired and still fogged up. It was also hard because of my size and the bulkiness of the spacesuit. I had to wear a steel coverall in my pants. Yeah, you add up all of this and we flirted with danger. Had I put the pack on I think I could have flown it. That part of it would have been successful but we just did not have adequate plans.

Just think, the backpack I was going to wear was supposed to fire hot hydrogen peroxide exhaust so I had to wear steel pants. That is totally inconceivable today. They use cold nitrogen to move around with today. I was actually going to fire a hot rocket down my butt on both sides, and in order to protect myself I was going to wear steel pants. Now how crazy is that?

It wasn't until years later that I realized how dangerous that mission was. I got so involved with the next flight that I just never thought about what I had really gone through. Only when I wrote my book [Last Man on the Moon, 1999, St. Martin's Press] and went over every bit of detail, including the medical records and transcripts, did I realize that the people on the ground were very, very concerned.

What was it like to fly the Lunar Module? How did it handle?
Well, it was an ugly little thing, wasn't it? People will look at that thing a hundred years from now and they won't be able to understand what we were thinking. It was like the Beverly Hillbillies. We strapped everything we could to the sides of it, everything but the piano.

We had the rover strapped to the side, a nuclear power system, all of our equipment strapped on it. It was shrouded aerodynamically during launch on the Saturn V and once we were out of the atmosphere aerodynamics didn't matter. There's no air all the way to the Moon so we could design it to be functional and not worry about aerodynamic characteristics.

There were no seats. We had to stand up and we didn't have very big windows because weight was such an important consideration. The only time it got your attention is when you repressurized it and took off your helmet and gloves. Then you think about how frail the thing is. For example, the hatch for the command module looks like it was built for a tank, but the Lunar Module hatch looks like a little oil cap. It's just a thin thing that bolts down and there is nothing between you and the universe except this little sheet of aluminum titanium. But it performed beautifully.

The whole 14-plus minutes landing [Apollo 17] is a story of its own. It was a magnificent flying machine. It responded well and flew well. When we went down we weighed something like 40,000 pounds. When we lifted off the surface of the Moon we were something like 10,000 pounds in one-sixth gravity. It was just a like a little fighter airplane. If there had been an aircraft carrier somewhere around I think it could have made a great landing on it.

How did your experience as a fighter pilot translate to space flight?
Going to the Moon was not a natural extension of flying. Some people say it is but for me it wasn't. It was a whole different world, both technologically and spiritually. It was something new and different. I made use of my background and all that I had learned, but it was a real challenge. I flew to another place in the universe. Just to say that sounds like I've been smoking something. But it happened. I was there. The Moon was my Camelot for three days of my life.

You and Harrison Schmitt [the geologist turned astronaut that landed with Cernan] accomplished some serious science while on the Moon. How rewarding was that for you?
Once we got there we had something to do. Preparing to be a scientist, a lunar geologist was in itself challenging and quite frankly was very interesting. We went were no man had ever been before. Every step we took on that part of the Moon was the first by a human. We saw things that no human being had ever seen before.
The science was exciting and a big a part of the mission. Going and coming, and the landing were certainly the highpoints for me, but the science was very meaningful. This was not just some place we could go back to easily so we had to work hard and do a lot of things in the limited time we had.

Did you become mentally comfortable over the three days that you spent on the surface of the Moon? Or were you constantly aware of how dangerous it was? Did you have any nagging anxiety about the ascent stage failing? [the ascent stage is the portion of the Lunar Module that carried astronauts up to rendezvous with the command module for the journey home]

I was very comfortable. If I was worried about being stranded or whatever, then I shouldn't have gone in the first place. While I was on the Moon I never worried about that moment when we had to fire the engine and get off. I was extremely comfortable, still all the time realizing that we were vulnerable to a whole host of problems. I was prepared. I figured I could handle it. I didn't sit there with my finger on the trigger all the time. We had a job to do. I was comfortable with the environment even though it was a very hostile environment.

Things did get a little exciting when it came time to lift off, because if that engine had failed to fire, quite frankly I don't know what I would have done. Thank God I don't have to answer that question.

How physically demanding was the work you did on the Moon?
It was extremely physically demanding. Our heart rates ran 140, 150, 160 beats per minute the majority of the time we were there, other than when we were riding in the [lunar] rover.
Moving around on the Moon in one-sixth gravity was a breeze once you learned how to do it. But drilling core samples was tough. We ran a pretty healthy workload the whole time we were there.

Tell me about the initials that you scratched on the Moon.
When it was time to leave, I parked the rover about a mile behind the lunar module so the television camera [remotely operated by Mission Control on Earth] could view our liftoff. When I got out I just had an inspiration to do it and wrote "TDC", Tracy Dawn Cernan [daughter]. I guess it will be there forever, however long forever is.

What thoughts went through your mind as you walked back to the Lunar Module for the final time?
It was a fairly long walk. I thought, "pinch yourself one more time and make sure this is real. You're going to be out of here soon so appreciate it." I knew that something special, a once in a lifetime thing was about to end. It became a little nostalgic for me.

I wanted it all to be meaningful. I wanted the entire program and Apollo 17 that ended the program to be successful and meaningful. I said some words: "May America's challenge of today be man's destiny of tomorrow."

I felt very strongly that we must press on, we must continue. That's why it's very frustrating for me to be sitting her today with the label of "last man to walk on the Moon".

Where will the Apollo program rank in history a thousand years from now?
Records are made to be broken and achievements are meant to be surpassed with greater achievements, but I think that Apollo is going to rank very high.

I do think that people 50 or 100 years from now will look back and wonder what the hell was going through our minds because we had the ability to leave the Earth and go to the Moon but we just quit. A thousand years from now, however, I think the time frame will be so compressed that it won't even notice it. A thousand years from now we will be living on Mars. We will be coming back to Earth to visit the place where our great-great-great-grandparents grew up. Or, we will visit the place where humans first left the Earth to go to the Moon. Mars and the Earth will be sister planets in the same way that Europe and North America were to my grandparents. The Old Country and the New World. It will be the Old World and the New World.

How did standing so far away from the Earth's problems effect you?
I just wish I could take every human being in the world and stand them beside me on the Moon for about five minutes. You get the idea that the world might be a little different if people could just see it from the Moon, not just see it but feel it too.

You feel somewhat helpless because you know you can't change things. For me it reinforced my feelings that the world is too beautiful to have happened by accident. There must be something or somebody bigger than us who put it all together. When I stood on the Moon, I stood at a point in space and time where I witnessed science meeting its match. Science could no longer explain what I was witnessing at that point in time.

It tells you that we are on one big sailing ship moving through the universe. If you have a belief in God, no matter what name you call him, you have to believe that he has given us an opportunity to do what we want with our lives and our world. We are a piece of his creation moving through the universe and where we end up, or if we self-destruct, is up to us.
When you look back at the Earth, it is so overwhelming, so powerful and beautiful. You see no borders, no language differences, no color differences. You don't see terrorism. Like I said, I just wish I could take every human being up there and tell them to take a look.

This interview was originally published in the Caymanian Compass on 9 August 2002.






'You never
forget your first launch.'

By Guy Harrison

Still trim and fit at 70, Thomas Stafford looks ready to climb atop a Saturn V rocket one more time if NASA made the call. As commander of Apollo 10 in 1969, he flew within nine miles of the lunar surface. He is one of just 24 men that have made the journey to the Moon. He also participated in two important Gemini missions and the Apollo-Soyuz effort. The latter was an astounding moment of cooperation between the US and Soviet Union during the Cold War. Stafford also accomplished a great deal in the US Air Force. Before retiring as a Lieutenant General, he spearheaded the development of the F-117 Stealthfighter as well as the B-1 and B-2 bombers. Today he retains the same passion for science and space exploration that once took him to the Moon and back.


Guy Harrison: What were your thoughts the first time you orbited the Moon and looked back at the Earth?

Thomas Stafford: When we saw the first Earthrise, it was awesome.

GH:Did you have time to reflect on your faraway home or where you too busy doing your job?

Stafford: Well, you can't help but reflect on it for the first few minutes you see it. You're very busy doing the job you have to do but you just can't help but think about it when you look at the Earth and it's about the size of a baseball or orange.

GH: Did the experience change your perception of humankind in any way?

Stafford: Yes it did. Of the four missions I flew in space, the one to the Moon made me think about it. The Earth looked so beautiful and yet in a way so insignificant. Being that far away, you had to ask yourself, 'why it is that those people have to have all those problems back there? Why can't they live in peace and solve their problems?'

GH: Why is space exploration important?

Stafford: I think it is very important. We have learned so much by going to the Moon, from the Hubble telescope and other things. For example, because of what we've done in space we know why there are four seasons on Earth. We know that a planet about the size of Mars hit the Earth early on and caused it to tilt 23.5 degrees. That's why we have four seasons today. We also now know what will happen to the Sun in the future. A lot of things out in space help us solve problems right back here on Earth.

GH: Have we done enough in the last 25 years?

Stafford: I don't think we have done enough as far as the human part of it [compared with robotic space probes]. We've picked up a bit in the last few years but we could have made a lot more progress over the last 25 years.

GH: What has been lacking? Just the political will?

Stafford:You're absolutely right. Political will has been lacking on the part of the [Clinton] Administration to invest in research and technology that we can use as the base to return to the Moon and go on to Mars.

GH: Which of your four space missions stands out in your memories?

Stafford: The most outstanding was when I went to Moon [Apollo 10]. Of course, you never forget your first launch.

GH: Were you ever scared?

Stafford: No. You have to look at the background. I was a fighter pilot, a test pilot. And you have to look at the simulations. I had over a thousand simulated launches. It was just part of the profession. If I had walked in cold for a launch, then yeah, I would have been scared.

GH: Beyond the science, what was the value of Apollo-Soyuz?

Stafford: It showed the world that two countries with different languages, different units of measurements, and certainly different political systems, can set a common goal and work together to achieve it. It's a lesson that can really help humankind.

GH: What are the most important qualities of a good astronaut?

Stafford: You have to have good intelligence, motivation to work hard, and I think a lot of common sense. You have to have the ability to make good decisions at the right time.

GH: How important is international cooperation to the future of space exploration?

Stafford: It's definitely important. When we went to Moon it was the big race against Russia, but I think returning to the Moon and going on to Mars will be an international effort.

GH: How do you respond to the criticism of spending money in space when people are starving on Earth?

Stafford: There were people starving in the world when Queen Isabella gave Columbus the money he needed to discover the New World. When JFK made the commitment to go to the Moon there were people rioting in the Washington. You can't stop and solve everybody's problems. If we wait for a perfect world we would never get anything done.

GH: What is your opinion of NASA?

Stafford: It was an excellent organisation in the 1960s. But what happened was that a lot of good people left after the lunar landings. People lost a little interest and it started to decline. It began to stagnate and it got fat. The same kind of thing happened to US Steel, IBM, American Express. It's improved a lot though. Dan Goldin [NASA's chief administrator] is doing a good job.

GH: Would you like to see space become another business frontier?

Stafford: I'd love to see that. The big problem is the cost of getting into low-Earth orbit. You've got to get that cost down. If we could get it down to $1,000 per pound it would be a great leap forward.

GH: When we will see humans on Mars?

Stafford: My gut feeling is 2016, 2018. We could do it earlier. We just need the commitment from the Administration.

GH: How does the difficulty of a crewed Mars mission compare with the difficulty of the Apollo programme?

Stafford: Compared to where we where when we started out to go to Moon, it will be technically less difficult to go to Mars.

GH: Are we capable of landing on Mars right now?

Stafford: Yes, it's just a matter of focusing the technology. The main thing is that we need to be able to recycle the water. We already know how to recycle the air. We also need to get there fast. We can protect against solar radiation but cosmic radiation is a problem. We just can't protect against it. So the way to do it is to go out there fast and come back fast.

GH: How important is it to encourage children in math and science?

Stafford: It's very important. Math and science is the basic background of all the technology that we have.

GH: You have been deeply involved with the US military, what are your thoughts today about war? Will we ever get past it?

Stafford: I think we may get past big wars but small conflicts may always be a problem. As far as I can see you will always have religious philosophical differences, territorial differences, personality differences. And as a result you're going to have wars. But I think as far as major wars like we have seen in Europe, no; you're not going to see them in the future.

GH: Where do you see our species in a thousand years, on Earth and in space?

Stafford: I think in a thousand years most people will still be on Earth but we will have a lot of people in space. But we have a big problem coming up in two or three billion years. The Sun is going to burn more and more hydrogen and start to expand. As it gets hotter and hotter our oceans will vaporise and all water on Earth will disappear. So we've got to get out of here!
GH: Thanks for your time, and thank you for your career. What you did was not just for you or for NASA. You did it for all of us. Thanks.

Stafford: That's nice. Thank you.



This interview was origially published in the Caymanian Compass newspaper (March 17, 2000)








The First Voyage

By Guy Harrison

It was to be the most daring mission ever attempted in the Space Race of the 1950s and 60s. NASA hoped to rush the launch of a three-man crew to the Moon and beat the Soviets, who they believed were close to attempting their own Moon shot. Only one Apollo mission had flown and no human had ever left Earth orbit before. To travel some 240,000 miles away from the Earth and orbit the Moon would be extremely risky. It was too much too soon. But it worked.

Frank Borman was commander of the Apollo 8 mission that included Jim Lovell and Bill Anders. Borman was a former Air Force fighter pilot and test pilot. A no-nonsense guy with a sharp mind and steady hands, he was perfect for a mission that would test NASA like never before.

Borman's first mission in space was Gemini VII with Lovell. Their primary goal was to rendezvous with Gemini VI which they did. They also orbited for a marathon 14 days in the cramped Gemini capsule, setting a new human endurance record in space. Borman was heavily involved in the investigation of the Apollo I launchpad fire that killed three astronauts. He believes the tragedy forced changes and led to a new attitude that made the rest of the Apollo program work so well.

When Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin of Apollo 11 walked on the Moon in July of 1969, Apollo 8 was instantly overshadowed and has remained so since. That may change, however, in the decades and centuries to come. Borman, Lovell, Anders and the Apollo 8 voyage may be returned to top billing when historians rather than TV broadcasters shape public knowledge about the Moon missions.

They were the first humans to leave our world for another. Few things in our history compare with that. Few things ever will.


Guy Harrison: Describe those 14 days you spent in that tiny Gemini capsule [Gemini VII mission]. How tough was that mission?
Frank Borman:
That Gemini flight was the longest flight to date. It was designed to show that you could exist in zero Gs for 14 days. Of course now we know that you can do far better than that, but at that time we didn't know. That was a very difficult task because we ran out of attitude control fuel and the fuel cells were breaking down, and being confined in that small an area for such a long time without being able to stretch was a tough chore.

Was it tough mentally?
It was boring. At the beginning of the flight we had all kinds of experiments to do and Gemini VI came and rendezvoused with us. That was a highpoint, but after that we were just drifting for about three days. Twenty-four hours is a long time when you are just drifting.

Put the Gemini program in perspective. It was overshadowed by the Apollo missions but how important was it to the overall effort to explore space?
Gemini was absolutely critical to the success of the Apollo program. Gemini proved all of the essential elements of the lunar landing mission possible. I agree with you that it has been overlooked but it was critical.

Apollo 8, the first voyage to the Moon, was a rush job to ensure that the US beat the Soviets. As the launch date approached did you have concerns that it might be too risky? How much of a gamble was that mission?
I think that mission was a very, very shrewd call by NASA management. We all had spent a great deal of time trying to fix the problems of the spacecraft that had resulted in the fire with Apollo I.
You're right that we did it because the word was out that the Soviets were going to try and do it before the end of the year. But I was not concerned that it was rushed. I had been on the committee that investigated the fire. I was out at North American [company that built Apollo spacecraft] working with them to get the new spacecraft in shape so I was very familiar and confident with the hardware. Nevertheless, the Apollo 8 mission was a very bold and courageous decision by NASA management.

You were closely involved with the investigation into the Apollo 1 fire [accident during a launchpad test killed astronauts Gus Grissom, Ed White and Roger Chaffe]. Some suggest that this tragedy was a key to Apollo's success because it forced crucial changes before flights resumed. Do you agree?
I agree with that. As a result of the fire, the spacecraft that flew on Apollo VII [first US manned flight after the Apollo I fire] was a much superior spacecraft than the one that burned. There was a change in attitude after the fire. Everything that just would have been nice to have suddenly became imperative.

How was it to meet Charles Lindbergh before the launch of Apollo 8?
That was very interesting. Lindbergh was a boyhood hero for all of us and we were able to get him talking about his flight [first solo flight across Atlantic]. It was a wonderful time. We spent most of the afternoon laughing.

How does the far side of the Moon look compared to the side that we see? [From Earth we only see the same side of the Moon. Borman, Lovell and Anders were the first humans to see the far side of the Moon in person]
The far side is exposed to deep space so it catches a lot more meteorites. It's much rougher than the side we see. It looks like it has been pretty well chewed up by projectiles. The far side is a rough place.

Did you feel a sense of great isolation, being so far from Earth in such a small spacecraft?
I never did. We had a job to do. It was a mission and everything was subordinate to the mission. Yeah, we were homesick for our families. On Christmas Eve, for goodness sake, we were nostalgic but I never felt that we were disconnected.

As one of the first three humans to see the Earth from a great distance, what thoughts went through your mind?
Well, you go through a lot of processes in wondering why there is so much conflict and you begin to realize that we really are "riders on the Earth together". On the other hand, you can't help but think as an American that freedom is about the most precious of all commodities. And it is worth preserving. Those were the thoughts I had.

There were a lot of concerns on Earth about your engine failing to fire for the return trip home and leaving you and your crew marooned in lunar orbit. Were you worried?
We had confidence in that engine but I must tell you that there were six eyeballs glued to the instruments and we were very, very glad when it worked. You have confidence but it's nice when it actually does work.

As commander of the Apollo 8 mission how much unique pressure were you under? Were you able to enjoy that flight?
We all felt pressure. The main concern that we all had was that somehow the crew wouldn't do the job well. That was the one thing we did not want to happen. The enjoyment comes when you come back and you step on the carrier and say, "boy, we did our job well".

How were you guys as a crew? Were you a good team?
Yes. I flew with Lovell twice and Anders just that once. I was very fortunate to fly with them.

Do you think that in the future, when historians rather than journalists shape public opinion, there will be more prominence placed on Apollo 8 [first lunar voyage] rather than Apollo 11 [first lunar landing]?
Each Apollo mission was so important. We could have never gone to the Moon if Apollo 7 hadn't been successful. Apollo 11 could not have gone to the Moon if 9 and 10 and not been successful. The fact that 11 was the lunar landing was, in my mind, miraculous. Who would have thought that this complicated system would put out four perfect flights: 7, 8, 9, 10? It was really an overall project and I have a hard time placing one above the other. Even after Apollo 11, the missions that came beyond that, with the Lunar Rover and everything else. It was a really incredible program.

The CIA was keeping a close watch on the Soviet space program. Did you guys learn anything from them that you were able to directly apply to the American space program?
Not that I am aware of. They certainly supplied the impetus for us though. They did an EVA [spacewalk] so we did an EVA. They were the force the made us act but I'm not aware that we ever borrowed, bought or stole any hardware or systems from them.

How do you rate NASA today? What direction would you like to see them head in the 21st century?
NASA today has a tough sell. There is enormous pressure on the budget. They don't have any competitor like we had in the Soviets to push Gemini and Apollo. I think it's going to be a long haul to be honest with you.

Some say we can do all we need to do in space with probes and robots. As a former human space explorer, how do you feel about that?
I think it needs to be a combination. We can do a lot with robots and probes, but I don't think that mankind will ever be satisfied until we put a human on the ground of whatever it is we are exploring.

This interview was originally published in the Caymanian Compass on 12 December 2001







From the Nazis to NASA


By Guy Harrison

Before American astronauts could walk on the Moon someone had to first imagine and then create the vehicles that would take them there. Walter Jacobi was such a man.

In Germany during World War II Jacobi worked on V-2 rockets for Hitler. This past haunted all the German missile engineers that came to America after the war. But in the rising heat of the Cold War the US government was eager to utilize the talented Germans in missile development, regardless of the baggage they carried. US thinking was on the next war, not the last one, therefore staying ahead of the Soviet Union was top priority.

Of course the two superpowers were not content to compete with weapons technology alone and soon took their race to space. Again, the German team was a significant source of genius for America's successful quest for the Moon.

Jacobi, still living in the United States today at the age of 84, is not long on words but it is clear that he appreciates the profound nature of the accomplishment he contributed to. He also continues to look ahead with confidence, toward humankind's next giant leap.


Guy Harrison: What were the circumstances of your move to the US to work on their missile program?
Walter Jacobi:
We signed a contract with the United States Army and they took us away.

You were happy with the situation?
Sure.

The Apollo program was such a magnificent achievement. Does it still fill you with pride after all these years?
After all of these years, I believe it is one the greatest ever technical accomplishments.

How difficult was the development of the Saturn V rocket (the rocket used for the Moon missions]?
There were many failures. I believe it was very, very thoughtful development overall.

Describe the pressures of the race with the Soviets?
It was always very long hours. We worked at night. We had to. We had so many things to complete. We had to make sure that everything fell into place.

Describe [German team leader] Wernher Von Braun?
From the very beginning he was intent on this [sending humans to the Moon], since he was in high school.

What were your thoughts during the moment Neil Armstrong's boot touched the surface of the Moon?
Oh, I think we all did a very deep sigh.

Do you feel that you and the other German engineers have been given enough credit for your contributions to the American space program?
I think we did, sure.

Are we doing enough to explore space today?
I believe that everything now is in line for us to go to Mars. We are developing technologies that will get us there in the next 30 or 40 years, depending on the money to pay for it. That [money] is always a problem. That's why we came to the United States, because we would get the money [for the program]. In Germany after the war there was no money.

This interview was originally published in the Caymanian Compass on 27 September 2002



Putting all the Pieces Together

A chat with former NASA Chief Engineer Ted Sasseen


By Guy Harrison

George "Ted" Sasseen has been to the mountain top. In fact he once worked 70 hours per week there. As Chief Engineer for Spacecraft Operations during NASA's golden age, he was about as deep into the game as one could be. Now retired, he still hasn't quite let go. Like an old boxing champ who prowls the gym that made him, Sasseen regularly stakes out a spot in the massive Apollo/Saturn V building at Kennedy Space Center and waits for the tourists to approach. With a casual tone he answers their questions and tells 'em how it was back when men rode rockets to the Moon.

Kennedy Space Center does not pay him to do this. He just enjoys being around when the eyes widen and mouths drop open as people stare in disbelief at the gigantic Saturn V Rocket on display. He says that very few people walk the length of the Apollo building without becoming choked up by the enormity of the achievement.
If this building is the shrine to humankind's greatest technological achievement, then Ted Sasseen is certainly Chief Resident Monk.



Guy Harrison: Looking back at the Apollo missions to the Moon, is there anything you would like to have done differently with the technology you had at the time?

Ted Sasseen: Not a thing. It worked didn't it?

GH: Is there any other event in history that compares with the lunar landings?

TS: I really don't think anything compares to it. When Neil Armstrong [Apollo 11] was trying to land on the Moon, for that instant, the entire world was united. We all prayed that he would put that ridiculous thing [Lunar Module] down safely. I don't think the world has ever had anything else like that.

GH: What kind of stress were you under during the height of the space race?

TS: Oh, I don't know, how do you measure that? The hours were long, of course, 60-70 hours a week at least. Everybody worked like that. I was not unique.
We had enough people to work three shifts a day. We worked seven days a week and we were always behind. That was just normal.

GH: Would you prefer to have worked toward the goal of a lunar landing without the pressure of the Space Race?

TS: Heaven's no, because it wouldn't have happened without it.

GH: Yes, but if it could have been attempted without the competition.

TS: That's just dreaming my friend. If the Russians hadn't pushed us into it we would not have spent the money.

GH: The pressure to rush all the time didn't taint the experience for you?

TS: Oh heavens no.

GH: What kind of work did you do specifically?

TS: I was the boss, I didn't do any work. I just watched everybody else do it all. [laughs].In this pro-gram we had rocketship people and spacecraft people. The rocket guys had responsibility for three tanks and 11 engines. I had everything else. I had both the spacecraft [Command/Service Modules and Lunar Module], the lunar buggy, the suits, backpacks, and all the experiments. Now keep in mind, Kennedy didn't design this stuff. Our job was to put it together, test it, make sure everything worked, give it to the astronauts and launch them.

GH: Do you feel the US government funds NASA adequately today?

TS: I think we do pretty good. Well, it's never enough money, but we do OK.

GH: How does it feel to hang around in this building [Apollo Center] while thousands of people wander by and admire something you played such a prominent role in?

TS: I meet space nuts from all over the world. They are just like I am and I thoroughly enjoy it. Very few people have come through here that weren't impressed. Half the girls have tears in their eyes by the time they walk down here from the other end.

GH: What are your feelings about NASA and space exploration today?

TS: I think we are doing exactly what we should be doing. You can't walk over the Appalachians with a wagon very easily. We got to the Moon and we are out of places to go. Right now we can't survive a trip to Mars. We just can't live in zero-gravity. That's what the [International] Space Station is primarily for. There will be lots of science and experiments up there, but mostly it's about learning how to live in space.




'I was the first man in space'

By Guy Harrison

In August of 1960, a balloon carried US Air Force test pilot Joe Kittinger to an altitude of 102,800 feet, nearly 20 miles above the Earth. He was at the place where the atmosphere ends and space begins, a hostile territory that makes eyeballs explode and blood boil. Instant death waited just beyond the protection of Kittinger's pressure suit and helmet. But the climb was only half of the Excelsior III mission.

At 7:10am Kittinger took one last glance at the world below and then stepped out of the gondola. The drop lasted 13 minutes and his body broke the sound barrier on the way down. More than 40 years later it is still the greatest jump in aviation history.

Despite the daredevil nature of the feat, Kittinger was no stuntman looking for attention. He was a test pilot, committed to learning new things and finding ways to make aviation and the exploration of space safer. The series of high-altitude balloon projects in the 1950s and 1960s that Kittinger was part of contributed to NASA's race to the Moon and were key to the development of safe ejection systems for high-performance aircraft. The public has largely forgotten these men and their accomplishments, but that may change soon. The Pre-Astronauts, an excellent book by Craig Ryan, details the balloon voyages to the edge of space and it is to be the basis of an upcoming movie. Kittinger says he has been assured that the movie will be loyal to the facts.

The history books may agree that Yuri Gagarin was the first human in space, Joe Kittinger, however, does not. "I was the first man in space," he says. He defines space as the point where humans die rapidly without artificial protection. So when Gagarin took his rocket ride in 1961, Kittinger points out that he had already taken his own bold step out into space a year earlier. Craig Ryan, author of The Pre-Astronauts, agrees.

"We can think of his bailout at 103,000 feet as the first space walk," Ryan says. "The most impressive thing of all may be that he has survived to tell the tales of his remarkable accomplishments. Survival doesn't just happen, it comes as the result of meticulous planning and preparation. Joe did everything the right way."

After his work with research balloons, Kittinger returned to his fighter pilot roots and volunteered for three combat tours during the Vietnam War. In 1972 he shot down a Mig-21 and was later shot down himself. He was captured and held for 11 months at the infamous "Hanoi Hilton" where the North Vietnamese tortured him.

Although Kittinger was deeply disappointed that high altitude balloons were never fully utilized as platforms for astronomical research, his passion for flying never dimmed. Over the last couple of decades he has enjoyed the life of a biplane barnstormer and won prestigious hot-air balloon races. In 1984 he became the first to make a solo balloon flight across the Atlantic Ocean.
While his claim to be the first in space may be debatable, there can be no argument that Colonel Joseph Kittinger is one of the greatest aviators of all time.



Guy Harrison: When you were a child did you imagine that you would accomplish so much in aviation?
Col. Joe Kittinger: Well, no. My dream was to be a fighter pilot. But I never dreamed I would be able to make the contributions that I have.

How close to death were you on Excelsior I? And how did you talk yourself into going back and doing more missions?
Excelsior I was a dangerous freefall. I was unconscious and the only reason I lived is because one of my team members figured out all the worst things that could happen and prepared the equipment for it. And the worst that could happen did happen. Of the three jumps that was the closest I came to not making it. But I knew we needed the data. I knew that we needed to continue with the project. I had no reservations about continuing. I had confidence in the equipment and in my team.

Before the ManHigh, Excelsior and Strato-Lab projects, how much was known about keeping a human alive in space?
Not much. You may think you know about something but until you actually do it you just don't know. There were some unknowns but we thought we had them pretty well figured out. What you worry about are the things you don't know anything about, the surprises.

As it turned out, we had figured things would work out just about the way they did. Our preparations for the tests were in fact very valid.

The point where space begins seems to be a subjective judgement. Do you feel that you were the first person in space and Yuri Gagarin was second?
I was the first man in space. Space starts at 62,000 feet because that is where you cannot live without a pressure suit. If you were exposed at 65,000 feet you would die very quickly, for example. So for man, space begins at 62,000 feet because that is the point at which you have to have a pressure suit on in order to live.

What is the view like 20 miles up?
It's a heck of a perch. I could see for 400 miles. But I was there as an experimental test pilot to gather data. I wasn't there to look out over the Earth as a beautiful object. I had to get the job done and get data in the space environment.

How bad was your right hand during the Excelsior III mission? Why didn't you abort when it was obvious that you had a serious problem?
It happened [pressure suit leak] at about 40,000 on the way up. I felt that I could sustain the pain and problems of not having a functioning right hand. I also felt that had I aborted they would have cancelled the program. I thought it was worth the risks so I made a conscious decision not to tell anybody about it.

About two hours after I landed on the ground I regained full use of my hand.

Is it true that you broke the sound barrier with your body?
Yes. At 90,000 feet I went 714 miles per hour.

Are you still the fastest human ever without an engine?
People have ejected from aircraft at faster speeds than that. But we did not do any of this to set records. It was all to gather data and information for the space program. Records were a by-product of why we were there. Although I jumped from over 100,000 feet and nobody else has done it in 41 years, we didn’t do it for that.

Describe the experience of freefalling from 20 miles up [Excelsior III mission].
It was the third jump I made from a balloon but this one was really up in space. I was in five millimeters of pressure which is the same pressure that there is on Mars. I was in almost a complete vacuum. Even though I had jumped twice before from balloons at very high altitudes, this jump turned out to be very interesting. When I jumped I felt like I was just suspended in space and nothing was happening. Then I turned over on my back and I saw the balloon and gondola just rocketing into space. I couldn't believe how fast it was flying upward. Then, of course, I realized that it was me going down at a tremendous rate while the balloon was staying at the same altitude.

Were you able to enjoy the experience of that jump despite the intensity of it?
No. I was there for business, there as a test pilot. I had a lot of things to worry about. How my parachute was working, my pressure suit.

Why did you choose flying combat missions during the Vietnam War over the space program?
Well, I was really disappointed. I had worked for five years on a program to take an astronomer into space. We were on the edge of making fantastic discoveries using a manned balloon observatory. But they cancelled the program and I was a fighter pilot so I opted to go to Vietnam.

How productive could balloons be for astronomical work? Could they compete with the Hubble Telescope?
Yes, and for one-hundredth of the cost. Tremendous gains could have been derived from balloon observatories that were never attained. The problem was that we didn't have a lobby. NASA had all aircraft industry making big bucks. What I was doing cost the taxpayers nothing, but there was no lobbying for it. There were no admirals and generals pushing for it because they wouldn't get anything out of it. The only people that would have benefited would have been the research community.

The Hubble is a great thing but there were many things that could have been achieved much cheaper and quicker with a balloon-borne observatory.

The balloon platform is stable enough?
Yes. Part of the project was working with MIT. They designed stabilization and star tracking equipment just for use on a balloon observatory.

You may not want to hear this question, but can you shed some light on the belief many have about little green men falling from the skies over New Mexico?
It never happened. There was a very top secret Army project that was designed to detect when the Russians detonated a nuclear weapon. They sent a balloon aloft with a very long antenna array, almost 500 feet long. It had very exotic looking equipment on it. The balloon landed on a ranch near Roswell. The so-called alien space ship was that balloon.

It's turned into a cottage industry and it put Roswell on the map. A lot of people want to believe it was aliens and they want to believe there was a big cover up. But I'll tell you, it never happened.

Do you think the crash dummies you were dropping from high altitude balloons contributed to this myth?
Absolutely they did. These dummies that we dropped from balloons were dressed in pressure suits so they looked unusual. One time we dropped one and it fell way up in the mountains. These dummies weighed more than 250 pounds, so how do you carry one out of the mountains? We put it on a stretcher and carried it to the back of an ambulance to take away. Now if somebody is back in the weeds watching this they are going to say, "Wow, look at that alien they have there." We think that a lot of the alien sightings were actually us doing our work with the test dummies.
There is an Air Force report that covers it all. It's called "The Roswell Incident: Case Closed". Anyone that has any doubts about what happened at Roswell should read it. When you get to the end of it you won't have any doubts. Anyone that is interested in the truth and the real facts should read that report.

What stands out in your memory most, jumping out at 100,000 feet or air combat in Vietnam?
The jump. There was a lot of tension associated with that, where as when you are fighting with an aircraft everything happens very, very fast.

Are you bitter about your experiences at the "Hanoi Hilton"? [Kittinger was tortured by the North Vietnamese].
Oh no. That's in the past. A lot of us are still upset about Jane Fonda though. She was a traitor and she should have been brought to trial. A lot of us still feel badly about that.

[Actress Jane Fonda was an anti-war protester during the Vietnam conflict. She enraged many Americans when she posed for photos atop a North Vietnamese antiaircraft missile launcher.]

How much did the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo programs borrow from the high altitude balloon efforts you were involved with?
We feel that our programs helped NASA and helped speed up the space program and make it safer. We didn't make a huge contribution to them, but we were one of many that helped by making smaller contributions.

How has the US Air Force utilized your discoveries about high-altitude bailouts?
The escape systems that are used today by the Air Force are derived from the drag formulas that we came up with back in the 1950s and 1960s.

It must be rewarding to have had such a direct impact on something that has saved the lives of many pilots over the years.
Yes, it is. The funny thing is, the Russians use the same exact system we designed too.

How special was your transatlantic balloon flight [In 1984 Kittinger became the first human to fly a balloon solo across the Atlantic]?
The work that I did on ManHigh, Excelsior and StarGazer was all for scientific purposes. The reason for flying the Atlantic solo in a balloon was adventure. It had never been done before. It had nothing to do with gathering data, it was just a lot of fun, a real adventure.

You have flown a lot of planes [88 planes, 16,000 hours] in your lifetime. If you could only choose one to take up, what would it be?
I've flown a lot of them. If I had to choose one, it would be the P-51 Mustang [World War II fighter plane]. It was the most exciting plane that there was, and I say that after flying all the jets there were. The P-51 was just pure excitement.

This was published in the Caymanian Compass on 26 October 2001


The Ultimate Astronaut

By Guy Harrison

In assessing the career of John Young it is difficult to decide whether to place emphasis on the span or the quality of his achievements. He flew the first manned Gemini mission in 1965 and commanded the important Spacelab shuttle flight in 1983. In between he flew to the Moon twice, spending nearly three days exploring the surface during the Apollo 16 mission. In 1981 he commanded and flew the first space shuttle mission. With his country boy demenor and matter-of-fact attitude, Young would be difficult to pick out of a lineup. But while he may not be flashy, his accomplishments certainly are. Six times he flew into space on unique and unusually high-pressure missions, and six times he did a superb job. These days Young is still at it, working for NASA, trying to figure out better and safer ways to explore and live in space. He considers his job to be nothing less than a contribution to the eventual salvation of our species.

Though he may fly under the radar of public awareness today, there is no doubt Young will be remembered many centuries from now. He is one of history’s great explorers, no less than Ferdinand Magellan or Christopher Columbus. When humankind extended its reach into the ocean of space, John Young was one of the few that led the way.

Guy Harrison: How important is space exploration to our species?

John Young: I know that people find this hard to believe, but believe it or not, the technology that we develop in space exploration, when we learn to live and work on places like the Moon and Mars, will one day save our species on planet Earth. I know this is hard to believe, but in a young child’s lifetime there is about one chance in a thousand that an asteroid will come along and take out about one-third of the population, or a super-volcano can come along and take out the population too. Those are inevitable events. They are as normal as anything else is as the Earth evolves.

Should we already have a permanent presence on the Moon?

Yes sir. We should have already been there for many years. I think we could learn a great deal. We could find if there’s water up there and use it. We would be able to do remarkable things. We could develop the technologies I was talking about. We could terraform [create living ecosystems where none existed before] in a closed-loop environment. We would learn how to use existing power sources, develop equipment to do heavy lifting. We could develop the resources of the Moon to use, just like we do here on Earth.

When will we land humans on Mars?

As soon as the president decides that we are going to do it. George Bush, the father, said we were going to do it but nothing ever happened because they overpriced the whole thing by a factor of four or five.

Whenever it does happen, what will the accomplishment mean for humankind?

I think the evidence is pretty clear that single-planet species don’t make it. If you have the technology you need to live and work on Mars, then when bad things happen on Earth, and they will, we can survive it. Just this summer it was shown that four of the five major extinctions have been caused by asteroid impacts.

So space exploration offers the best shot we have at avoiding extinction?

Yes. We can either sit around until this happens to us or we can go out there, pursue these things vigorously and be prepared.

Some people say you have to blow up these asteroids that threaten the Earth but that will just make piles of rubble that keep coming your way. My old buddy Franklin Chang is working on an engine that you can dock to an asteroid and push it out of the way. That’s the way to do it.

Back on Apollo 16, did you have any time to pause and appreciate the fact that you were standing on the Moon?

Not really. The timeline was so overbooked. We were booked somewhere between 125 and 150 percent of what we could do because time on the Moon was so precious. And that’s the way it should be. We sent 12 people up there, wearing pressure suits with a lot of work to do. To stop and think about things just wasn’t in the cards.

But you seemed to be having a lot fun judging from the film footage I have seen.

We did have great fun. One-sixth gravity is delightful. I loved it. Wearing a 200-pound pressure suit and carrying 100 pounds of Moon rocks [Earth weight], you could jump flatfooted up to the second rung on the Lunar Module ladder, which was about five feet off the ground. I loved it.

How did the isolation feel when you were alone on Apollo 10?

(On Apollo 10 Young was the Command Module pilot. While Thomas Stafford and Gene Cernan flew the Lunar Module, Young orbited the Moon alone. He was the first human ever to be alone on the far side of the Moon.)

There again, I was just really busy. There was a lot to do. Of course, the Command Module is a three-person spacecraft and I was in it alone so, man, I was like a one-armed paper hanger goin’ at it.

As a guy that has flown so many different planes and spacecraft, how do you rate the Lunar Module [the spacecraft that landed on the Moon]? How did that spacecraft handle?

Flying it with the descent stage was like flying a big helicopter and with just the ascent stage it was like flying a sports car. It could move around really fast. It didn’t weigh very much and it had these 100-pound thrusters. It was an incredible piece of machinery.

The life of an astronaut is so fast-paced and stressful, especially during the space race. How have you made it through such a long and illustrious career without burning out?

I think I’m burned out now [laughs]. No, right now I’m working on 218 different technical items dealing the usefulness, performance, speed, efficiency and safety of aeronautical and space vehicles.

How do you feel about having played such a prominent role in humankind’s first steps into space?

I think it’s very nice, but it was pure luck. I was just in the right place at the right time.

You are only 71 years old. Will you fly in space again?

Oh I’d love to, but my wife would kill me.

 

This interview was originally published in the Caymanian Compass 19 October 2001



Thomas Stafford flew two Gemini missions.
He also commanded the Apollo 10 voyage
to the Moon and the Apollo-Soyuz mission as well.
NASA photo